Fit for Duty Podcast: Episode 13.

Welcome to Fit for Duty your regular dose of international health and wellness benefits insight and expert advice brought to you by Aetna International.

We’re here to help you improve the health, happiness and productivity of your people. This episode, number 13 of our award-nominated series is focused on the intersection between well-being and personal and professional development. I’m Lorien Norden, Global Thought Leadership Strategist and today I’m talking to international Executive Leadership Coach and author Nicolai Tillisch.

In this conversation we talk about why creating a new map for the future of business leadership and corporate culture is critical to organisations; we discuss the principles that can help organisations looking to nurture a resilient workforce while successfully navigating today’s increasingly uncertain and volatile environments. We also cover why it’s critical for businesses to build an employee-centric culture, one that helps people balance career development, learning and fulfilment with social connectedness and fully person health and well-being taking in the emotional, physical and mental. Along the way Nicolai reveals the well-proven, effective principles to success that can be applied by organisations and individuals alike. I hope you enjoy the discussion.

Lorien: Hello Nicolai, welcome, it’s fantastic to have you here. How are you?

Nicolai: Thanks you so much. I’m really excited and I’ve really looked forward to this and am very grateful to be invited.

Lorien: Excellent. Well, I know your career to date has taken you all over the world, hasn’t it? So I wondered if you could give us a bit of a potted history of your experience and expertise and also tell us briefly about the launch of your latest book, which you co-authored with McKenzie & Co Assistant Partner Nicolai Chen Nielsen.

Nicolai: So, I’ve worked and still work to a good extent around the world. My background is a bit unusual for what I’m doing as I’m actually an economist by training and started my career as a management consultant. Now the firm has already been mentioned here but it was the same firm I started my work career in. Then I got an offer I couldn’t refuse in one start-up and then I was involved in another start-up and then a third start-up. And then I had a big revelation that what actually motivates me is to help other people, to help them grow and achieve things that they didn’t imagine possible. So 10 years ago I took a rather radical decision and changed completely and focused on development leaders. Today just to mention context, I’m part of the global network called Cultivating Leadership where we work with some of the biggest and most admired companies around the world and also I’m involved in a start-up for software for personal development. You asked about the book and Nicolai (it’s quite funny both of us are called Nicolai!) and I have actually been working on this for about six years and it started out about being an idea about writing an unusual leadership book and after we started working on it we actually realised that so much had been written about leadership. And we saw a theme that we didn’t really see anybody else had addressed and that is ambition. And ambition is quite an interesting phenomena because it’s evidently very good, it’s what keeps the world going to a very large extent. And again what we realised and our research confirmed that is that a lot of ambitious people actually struggle to keep a balance in their life. And then we developed the book as a small system to help people contemplate about their ambition, what helps and hinders them and also how they can live their ambitions out more fully, and also life in general more fully.

Lorien: Fantastic. And today I really want to bring all of that knowledge and expertise that is the cornerstones and principles of your book into the organisational and corporate arena. I really want to set the scene by acknowledging that the rapidly evolving environments in which businesses are operating today and the way they’re having to evolve at a commensurate pace, so in particular looking at people management. For instance, well-being is fast becoming an integral part of how organisations attract, retain and engage their talent as more traditional elements of health insurance, wellness benefits, career development, company culture things like that. At Aetna International, when we talk about well-being we’re focused on whole person health, so that’s to say the physical, the emotional, mental as well as aspects like social connectedness, purpose and character strength. And I like this excerpt from a 2020 Deloitte report that says that “recognising the inextricable link among our well-being, our work and our lives has led more organisations to think deeply about the ways they can design well-being into work itself”. So, with that in mind I wanted to really get your views about how important it is for organisations today to help their employees balance their sense of purpose, personal growth, career development as well with that whole person health. So, firstly do you agree that it’s important and, if so, why are each of these factors in turn so crucial?

Nicolai: It is important, it’s incredibly important. I think that well-being (and I love the definition you just shared) and personal growth are essential for ambitious people and they are as important as achieving itself. The thing is a lot of ambitious people don’t realise that, so when you talk about the factors, what we uncovered in our research, so we went through basically all the existing literature research, we did our own interviews, did our own survey, it’s quite interesting that there are three things are very closely interdependent: how people achieve, how they grow and experience well-being. And to exemplify this we try to look into who are the people who are successful over time and how are they living their lives? And one pattern over time is how they nurture these three components of achievement, growth and well-being. And what we also saw were a lot of examples where people had momentarily been in trouble in various ways, had problems with their performance or private life and one of the things we could trace in these stories was again that if you compromise in one of these three achievement, growth or well-being then what will happen is that over the time the two others will start going down. So these things are interconnected and it’s really important.

Lorien: So, in terms of looking at people management from an organisation’s perspective, how do you feel that human resources as a function can help individuals support and build this intertwined relationship between growth and career development and balance that whole person health as well?

Nicolai: I’d like to start saying that I think HR teams in most big companies are actually doing a quite good job. They have been very thorough in structuring performance management, which is very important also for well-being and growth they have been evolving their talent management. So I think in many ways they have done really well. Then again when you ask what can they do? I see two areas where most HR teams still have something they can do and the first one is that corporate professionals actually have to absorb a lot of mental and physical pain associated with working tremendously hard and also there are so many employees who feel they don’t really have time to develop themselves. This is difficult to measure because it’s something people are not truly open about, they are scared about being truly honest around. It’s also easy for HR in corporations to downplay this because it’s so difficult to measure, so I think one of the things a lot of HR teams can do, and by the way also the executives in the respective companies, is to really acknowledge this problem is there and it is serious and also make more efforts to address it.

The second area is associated with … basically I can imagine there are a lot of listeners to this podcast who are now thinking of a corporate initiative, there might already be a catchy name for it -- something about everybody needs to do one or a few things and then there will be a rollout plan and so on. I doubt that this is very effective for what we are talking about. We’re talking about basically how people are living their whole life and it’s difficult to really fix that with that traditional corporate initiative. So what I think is important here is to really trust that grown-up people in an organisation are actually interested in both being successful and living a fulfilling life and what it then is about is to offer some good ideas and simple tools from which people can pick what they feel confident around and use that to be better at self-reflecting, to make more conscious choices in their daily lives and also to expand their awareness.

Lorien: Absolutely. And that whole piece around self-reflection and awareness is really interesting and we’ll have an opportunity to come back to that in a little while. I wanted to look at the strategy that is in place that caters to, as we’ve talked about, the personal and professional growth and how much the need to evolve and change that strategy is being driven internally by leadership, by the organisations themselves and how much is coming from employees do you think in the form of demand? So where do you think that balance falls — do you think it’s being more driven by the organisations or employees?

Nicolai: It’s difficult to say how the balance is because it differs from place to place, but what I think is it’s totally evident is that both organisations and professionals are responsible and each party depends on the other, so it’s pretty obvious when you look at organisations they can gain a lot because growth and well-being significantly impact their employees’ current and future achievement. So it’s a major factor in performance, we’re not just talking about what are the cost associated by not doing it … also say this is such an important element in being able to attract and retain capable people and also ensure they are loyal while they’re in the company. You can even say that some of this is moral; you need to be considerate when dealing with other people. On the other hand, when you look at the professionals, it’s their life! They might earn a lot of money, but they’re not immortal and their friendships are not eternal so they’d better wake up if they don’t pay attention to this and of course there are some who are not treated particularly considerately by their employers but I also see so many people who do so much more to self-reflect. I mean just to give you a number here, in our survey we did when we worked on the book, we asked people about self-reflection and what we can see among the people who recognise how important self-reflection is, which is a large majority, but when you just look at the ones who actually recognise how important it is, four out of ten admit that they are not using proper time to self-reflect. What we also can see is that the people who don’t self-reflect, they are more stressed and it’s actually by a factor of 2.1 compared to the people who self-reflect more, so we’re talking about something that’s pretty serious.

Lorien: And I think within the last 12-18 months, the opportunity for that self-reflection, the opportunity for people to take a step back and look at themselves an employee, as an individual to say what is it that I need in terms of making sure my health and well-being needs are met and what is it that I want out of my career and personal fulfilment, growth and development? And talking about statistics and things, the data from Aetna’s recent annual global study, for example, showed that huge percentages of employees said that the pandemic has heightened their awareness of the importance of mental health. That’s 84% and the awareness of importance of physical health 89% and also access to quality care 87% and on top of that, 74% of employees felt that poor mental health has affected their productivity, their drive, their purpose since early 2020. Yet just 31% of employees said that they’re happy with the level of health benefits and resources their employers provide, so that’s a huge discrepancy and then considering that employers have identified that productivity and profitability are linked to workforce health and engagement, it’s incredible that this gap still exists. So, again, just coming back to that notion of achieving whole person health and a balance, what does achieving a healthy balance in life mean to you personally?

Nicolai: Of course I’m very favoured that I work so intensely with it, so what we ended up Nicolai and I to put in the book and what I think about it myself is quite similar. It’s a little bit like spinning plates to be honest, there are three big plates that are really important: well-being, very broadly defined like you did earlier, Lorien, it’s the growth and here I can say personally this is tremendously important for me and probably stronger for me than some of the others because if I don’t explore something or read something, I mean keep my mind going, I notice it very strongly just within a week or two and often even quicker. I like having things I’m kind of wondering about beyond like problems I solve at work. And then the third and final one that is also important and particularly for ambitious people is that people actually like to achieve, there’s a lot of pride associated with it. It’s this plate spinning that you have. Most people do way too much and I think most corporations are trying to do way too much which makes this all so much more difficult and there are the three big plates: well-being, growth and achievement. And even when things are going well, you still need to keep working on them.

Lorien: Absolutely and you mentioned earlier actually about the rollout of strategies and plans and how successful or potentially unsuccessful they are and I think that the data I eluded to or cited just now shows that there’s either a gap in communications around that rollout, around those strategies or a gap in understanding of the well-being support and the benefits and career development opportunities or the purpose that fuels the organisation from an employee perspective and how they access and tap into all of that. So do you think with your experience of working with individuals and executive leaders, do you think that organisation and the culture that is in place and the employees that work there, do you think they understand each other?

Nicolai: [Laughs] That’s a big question!

Lorien: [Laughs] it is a big question!

Nicolai: I think it’s one of these questions about how full or empty the glass is, but I think in the context of what we are talking about right now, it’s very clear that the glass is not completely full. And I think I mentioned it before, in management theory, going back basically for the past 150 years, there’s been a big emphasis on what you can measure and a lot of what we talk about here, you can’t measure. And that means when you sit and I’ve been doing that myself as an executive, I’ve been sitting and looking at a big population of people and then seeing numbers, it’s very difficult to see what we are talking about and that means that it’s also very difficult to understand. And on the other hand, I think a lot of employees, they have an experience of their employers’ intention which is not fully true and in a lot of cases — this is not just corporate professionals I’m talking about now, but people from all walks of life — there are a lot of people who actually don’t realise how much they can do themselves. So, it’s a little bit like corporations don’t fully understand their employees and people in general don’t fully understand themselves either!

[18.48] Lorien: So, that self-reflection is needed from a corporate and individual perspective. So, one of the other areas I wanted to ask you about is the ways in which organisations can help to upskill their HR leaders and line managers and those people who are really spending more time supporting colleagues who are in crisis.

Nicolai: First of all, I would say that I think actually HR and line managers are pretty good at handling when one individual is in a crisis and I think HR has much of the honour for that. But then also when we talk about well-being here during the pandemic, I think it’s time to speak about a very big, serious and systemic problem and this was there way before the pandemic. You have Gallup, the publisher’s, statistics once a year that consistently and across countries show that more than half of all corporate employees don’t feel engaged in their work. And I mean please consider this; for corporate professionals their work is the single most time-consuming activity in their waking life when they are between the age of 25 and 65, so these numbers are horrible and I really don’t like to imagine what all that anxiety, apathy, boredom can result in over time in terms of people’s mental and physical health. Also, just to emphasise I would say how bizarre this is, it’s very common that companies actually use data like this to benchmark themselves and even though you are well beyond the median in these numbers, it’s actually pretty bad. So, it shouldn’t be something that is celebrated, but rather be a big concern even if engagement scores are in the 60s/70s percentiles, it’s actually pretty bad. So, I can’t avoid asking myself how on earth this can happen and I think there are two reasons for it. And I think the first one is that executives and HR teams are too busy to be as empathic as they should be when dealing with other people and I would also say this is human, it’s human, they’re trying to do their best and also trying to get everything to hang together. But the cost of that is typically that empathy is one of the first things you economise with more with than you should. The other reason can sound a bit abstract but is probably even more problematic… and that is the way all of us, at least in the western world, the way we are trained in international business and also accustomed to work, builds a method that basically assumes that the world is predictable. And we struggle the moment when things are not relatively predictable, and that happens when organisations become very big and the internal interdependencies go exponential and it also happens the moment where there are a lot of expectations to us and circumstances beyond our zone of influence, making it difficult for us to easily keep a balance between this achievement growth and well-being. So we have something that is difficult to see and grasp and most people are not even knowing the methods to deal with it. So this is what we’ve worked a lot on in the book, from a corporate perspective, what is the atom of a corporation, that’s the employee and you need to make sure your atoms are in good shape for the organisation to perform and you need to ensure the health of the components that make up your organisation. And I think that’s a good place to start, that people pay more attention, executives and HR teams in particular but everybody to that balance in life.

Lorien: Absolutely. And when it comes to the ways in which an organisation or the people within it whether it’s the executive leaders, HR teams adapting their approach to better communicate and better meet the holistic needs of their people. Can you talk to me about how they can go about doing that more effectively?

Nicolai: It’s a super good question of course there are many ways you can do it. I think there are five ways to adapt and also to be transparent about it the first two are not in our book, so if I take them one by one… the first one is you remember you are on the edge of professional life on the border where it reaches into people’s personal lives and you need to be super careful about not intruding in the latter and that is for motivational, ethical and legal reasons.

The second thing is I think that executives and HR teams are often can do much more than they do to identify things that hurt people’s well-being and their growth. Leadership theory focuses a lot on how to be inspirational and motivate and often you can actually in a much more productive way impact a motivation by removing or at least reducing things that are demotivating for people.

If we move onto the third point — and now we enter the territory of the book — I think executives and HR teams can often do much more in terms of trusting that the well functioning, adult people working for them have a strong personal interest in both being successful and also living a full life. They will do a lot of the work that is needed.

Point four and that is to a large extent what the book is all about and that is to offer people simple ideas and tools and do it in a way where you allow people to pick what works best for them so they can enhance their self-reflection, they can make more conscious choices in their daily life and so that they can expand their [awareness/wellness].

The fifth and final point is, and that’s the whole style in our approach, is it’s really important to have adult-to-adult conversations. Too much in corporations happens one way — typically from the top and downwards and it’s a little bit like employees are not wheels in a machinery, they are human beings and know a lot about being human beings and know better than anybody probably what it is that makes it so difficult for them to find a balance in their life.

Lorien: And in terms of giving an example of how some of those simple tools in the model can be put to work by organisations, could you illustrate that or perhaps give an anecdote around that for me?

Nicolai: Yes, of course. So one of the ideas in the book is that the virtues of ambitious people is of course their greatest strength but it’s often also their greatest hindrance for both being successful or as successful as they could be and for living a full life. We call it frenemies by the way, so frenemies are people’s friends but they often end up acting as their enemies. So these are things like competitiveness, desire, perseverance, boldness, independence there are seven so I can also mention the last two — flexibility and convention. So these seven are things that can take you far in an ambitious life and as a corporate professional but what you actually will realise is that it’s often what hinders you in actually keeping that balance we’re talking about and often also what actually hinders you in achieving. That’s an idea and then in terms of the tools, we have four simple tools and one of them is basically a way to help people notice their frenemies because when we get sincere whether it’s super happy or very angry it’s very often one of these seven frenemies and it’s a good way to find out when do I get very emotional and how is that linked to my virtues as an ambitious persons. Because the more you become aware of that, the more you can also make conscious choices about what you really want.

Lorien: And, thinking about those conscious choices and thinking about upskilling and empowering people who are in positions now where their roles have expanded and changed so dramatically in recent times… people like HR professionals, chief people officers, line managers they’re so much more visible now than they were before and their teams are really looking to them for answers so they’re much more in touch with the pressures their teams are facing and often they’re the first line of defense as well for remote working teams, helping them to cope with stress, anxiety and burnout. So these people are busier than ever, often doing more with less, helping teams and individuals balance their holistic needs, balance all those professional responsibilities, the demands on them and helping to support their career growth and development opportunities as well. So, thinking about that in terms of workforce resilience, so making sure that the line managers themselves are resilient and the teams are resilient, how can businesses and organisations help to nurture workforce resilience. And first of all, what does workforce resilience mean to you?

Nicolai: I have some strong views on this and then you said a thing that I think is important… there are a lot of HR heroes out there because the last year has been so unusual that suddenly a lot of people who didn’t really appreciate HR and didn’t really take some of the things that HR have been communicating seriously and I think there’s been a big eye-opener in the pandemic. I do most of my work with very senior executives and I’ve seen a lot of them suddenly become more human and talking about things that I haven’t heard them talk so unprompted and genuinely about before, so it’s a big opportunity for HR.

When we talk about that then I think resilience is an interesting thing, because we as human beings are actually much more resilient than most people realise and we naturally have a tendency to look at catastrophes and people who are hurt but the large majority of people are incredibly resilient and I think we’ve also seen that during the pandemic. That said, you asked me about what organisations can do to make people more resilient and I believe the following: you can work on making yourself more resilient but it’s near impossible to resile others or demand them to become more resilient. I also sense that a lot of adults get suspicious when somebody tries to resile or harden them especially if these people could be more considerate towards them in other regards. And this is not limited to HR but what all people who are line managers should really do is to pay attention to how people are feeling, how challenged they are, and also whether they are properly supported. There’s a notion of what’s called psychological safety and unfortunately that’s become a buzzword so that means it’s widely understood too simplistically as a consequence, but what I’m talking about here is really to pay attention to whether people are feeling well-being, whether they are healthily challenged and they need to support and when line managers do that they enable what Amy Edmundson calls psychological safety and by the way also the Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi coined as ‘The flow’ and the late Sumantra Ghoshal compared to the Fontainbleu forest at spring. So instead of trying to make people much more resilient I would rather have people start trying to work with each other in a different way.

Lorien: Hm, so part of that work to support line managers who are spending more time supporting colleagues in crisis, you mentioned about making sure that those people in turn are supported. So, what have you seen take place in organisations that has really resulted in that support being given to line managers that you would recommend that other people do perhaps?

Nicolai: I think it’s very simple. Line managers who don’t understand this, they should forget about being line managers. I’d also say one of the things I see is the way HR plays this has a huge impact on how successful an attempt to do what I described will be and unfortunately I see too many HR departments trying to centralise or monopolise what they think line managers should do and eventually the line managers should do decentrally and what they feel a strong psychological ownership for. So it’s very important that line managers do their job and HR can support them but they need to trust that the line managers will actually do it. And the line managers need to do it because otherwise they shouldn’t be trusted to be line managers.

Lorien: Absolutely. And I wanted to ask about people who are facing increased time and resource pressures in the short term but also have long-term aspirations and drive and ambition. How do you think that individuals can find the balance between getting through this very volatile, exhausting time period that we’re all experiencing at the moment to maintain momentum and wellness and personal growth in the long term? What can they do to carry themselves through?

Nicolai: It’s a very good question… and then again having worked with people who are very senior they have, throughout their careers, felt every time they got a promotion that now they were really challenged and it was really difficult and then when they got the next promotion, then things got even more challenging and it kept being like that. So, I think without in any way removing the responsibilities from employers, that even the pandemic and of course there are people who have had profoundly extraordinary situations about health issues themselves or with close family members, or people have lost their jobs or have had great risk of losing them and so on and so on and of course I really empathise with that situation. And then again I think that people can generally do much more to reframe what they are experiencing. What we work with in the book is also a little bit about how to set goals and intentions and one of the exercises, one of the tools (I’ve already mentioned one of the other tools) but the tool that we call the weekly deliberation we can see have significant impact on people’s stress levels actually; I’m also involved in software that works around these lines so I’m pretty much into it because we’ve had hundreds of test people that when people do an exercise like weekly deliberation which involves sitting down here at the end of the week or beginning of the coming week and really looking at the calendar and the ‘to do’ list and circling in a few, we suggest three areas, that can improve what we call return on ambition and then take a moment to reflect on each of these and formulate an intention. What does a good result look like? What can I do to achieve that result? What can I do to learn from this opportunity? The opportunity can be a meeting, a task, anything and by doing that, it has actually some very sophisticated effects on how the brain works and so you prepare yourself in a completely different way, you’ll also be much more focused on what is really important and when you complement that by also evaluating afterwards and make some notes about what insight you had, you’re typically able to deal with much more pressure and also mobilise intrinsic motivation — you can actually make what you do more exciting and also make the more trivial tasks you have or less important things less stressful because when you then have time to do them you’ll typically do them faster when you have prioritised. So that’s one of the many things people can do.

Lorien: That’s fantastic, really useful and actually I wanted to take a moment to circle back to something you mentioned earlier, we’ve talked a little bit about the softer skills and softer metrics and how there’s been an upsurge in the compassion and humanity within organisations being shown to their people, to their customers and I wanted to also ask you as well about some of those harder metrics, particularly around productivity… So, at AI our key focus is on helping to develop healthy, happy, productive workforces but then the whole notion of productivity I think has changed in recent times, so I’d be really interested to understand your take on productivity and how you think that that has evolved in the last 12-18 months as well. How do people measure productivity these days? When you think about decentralised teams and there are no longer (excuse the crudeness of the phrase) bottoms on seats, you can’t measure productivity by the fact that people are necessarily present in an office, you have to treat them as adults and, as you said, trust that they are focused and getting on with things. But when people are so removed and so decentralised and so fragmented as teams, it’s that whole notion of productivity and what you think that means today?

Nicolai: To be frank, it’s a very messy picture. It’s like a motion picture that’s still being recorded. I have clients that have never had a better year than 2020, many of them. They had a few weeks or months where everything was up in the air. I have other clients where this has basically killed part of their business; they’ve had to lay off a lot of people, had to close businesses so I think we are talking about something that’s so extreme and chaotic in many ways, that it’s difficult to measure productivity. So I think you’re right Lorien, when you highlight that in offices there’s a lot of wasted time. There’s a lot of wasted time with not so important meetings and people hanging around and chit chat and people sitting in their chairs for longer hours than is necessary and getting tired and unproductive, so some of that has obviously been reduced but on the other hand for a lot of people this has been really tough and I mean so you have homes with children who are being home-schooled where the parents had to both work and be like support teachers for their kids which is super distracting and also pretty tough because you are neither as good parent nor as good an employee as you would like to be. And you have other people dealing with loneliness, and all the fear and anxiety associated with uncertainty, so I think it’s a very messy picture.

Lorien: That was a very, very honest answer. And I wonder actually, as we wrap up our chat today, could you maybe share some of your biggest learnings from the last 12 months or so? You’ve mentioned self-reflection, how important has that been to you? And what do you do to really maintain a healthy balance in your life and how has that changed over the past 12-18 months?

Nicolai: [Laughs} yeah it’s been quite an extreme year in many ways. So I think I find appreciation of small things and it can be something as simple as having a nice breakfast on a Tuesday morning, I mean any particular Tuesday morning but make sure that the family is up in good time and make a nice breakfast and we have time to sit and chat before the kids start online schooling and my wife and I start our work. So these things I think it’s important to carve out time for and then be brutal in prioritisation, really brutal. In principle take one day at a time and both make sure to enjoy the small things and also focus on what’s most important and then do it really well.

Lorien: Absolutely. And as we close out the conversation, is there anything you’d like to leave us with as a parting thought about how else you can help people achieve a sense of balance in their career and personal life? What final nugget of advice can you leave us with today?

Nicolai: Could you actually achieve the same level of success as you experience now with less effort? Or could you with that tremendous effort you are putting in actually be much more successful? Because there you have that play between well-being and growth and achievement and by reflecting a bit on it what most people find out is they can actually get more of all three, that’s what self-reflection can do.

Lorien: Well thank you very much, I’ve really enjoyed our conversation today and thank you for your time.

I hope you’ve enjoyed today’s podcast episode. Next month we’re going to be discussing the growing pressures organisations are facing when it comes to supporting the health and well-being of their people, specifically the rise in co-morbidity or to put it another way, the increasing incidence for the presence of more than one condition or disorder in the same person? For example, depression and heart disease. What’s driving this trend, what can organisations do about it and why is a whole person health approach so important?

Aetna International is a global health and wellness benefits provider but we’re more than just an insurance safety net, our skill lies in delivering tools and services and resources that drive health care costs down and people’s health and well-being up. And that’s something that’s important to our clients and self-funded members alike and that’s why we currently serve almost 900,000 people around the world — from Shanghai to Seattle. Ultimately, we believe that when people thrive, their work and their personal endeavours thrive too. For more information about us you can visit aetnainternational.com.