Fit for Duty Podcast: Episode 17.

MB: The skill or the superpower of being able to effectively lead or stimulate collaboration is incredibly valuable and becoming more and more so. We need to be careful not to be trapped in, in that mindset that elevates deep technical skill and undervalues that skill and the power of someone who is a great collaborator.

LN: Hello, and thank you for joining this episode of Fit for Duty. Getting the right people into the right roles, in the right location is much trickier than it used to be, I think we can all agree. The values, needs and expectations of talent, globally mobile talent in this instance, are changing. And there are new complexities in immigration, in tax and healthcare regulations to consider. And there are new working models, policies, and governance frameworks, that organisations need to continue to develop so that they can make fast agile decisions.

DT: I think at every level, that's going to be, well-being is going to become more and more part of that, sort of, value exchange. As certainly for the time being, you know, the balance of power between employers and employees becomes more equal.

LN: If you want to understand more of this and how you can foster healthy, fulfilled individuals, get the best out of your people wherever they are, and ensure your organisation is set up for success, then keep listening. Because it's time to get some deeper insights on Global Mobility from our special guests today: Marc Burrows, Head of Global Mobility services at KPMG and David Tyers, Senior Director, Brand & Marketing and Strategy at Aetna International. So, hello to you both. Welcome.

[Hellos]

It's a pleasure to have you both here. Could I ask you to give a little bit more colour to the introduction that I have just given there in terms of your role and your background, and what it is that you do? Starting with you please, Marc.

MB: Happy to. So I'm Marc Burrows, and within our global mobility services practice at KPMG, what we're really about is helping companies when they're moving employees across borders, to make sure that they're doing so in a way that both the company and the employee are doing all the right things that they need to do to, so no one gets in trouble. That they're not spending any more money on that mobility than they need to, and they're doing so in a way that those employees remain engaged and happy to turn up to work each day. Myself, I'm Australian and I started with KPMG in Sydney some time ago. And then I've spent most of my career in Europe based in both Switzerland and now in the UK.

LN: Fantastic. So the same for you please, David?

DT: Yes, hi. My name is David Tyres, the Senior Director for Marketing, Strategy and Planning at Aetna International. I lead a range of global Marketing services for the for the business, brand, creative services, digital marketing. But for the purposes of today's conversation, one of my key areas of focus is the development of thought leadership content. So, we seek to engage with our clients and businesses more widely with ideas, insights and provocations around how to better manage employee health and well-being, so very much part of what Marc has talked about there, and showing the link between healthy teams and good business performance.

LN: Excellent. Thank you so much. And before we get into the conversation, can I ask you both, you know, where are you working from today? And what is your, sort of, working arrangement? Are you full time from home these days? Marc, what's your working situation?

MB: So, I am working this morning from, from my home in not-so-sunny Greenwich. But I'll be working this afternoon from our office in Canary Wharf. And so at the moment, we're in a hybrid model where we're, there's many of us that are back in the office. I'm personally in the office about three days per week, but today is no exception, where, given I live quite close by to, to our office It's not unusual for me to have single days where I work a bit from home and a bit from there.

LN: That’s very handy to be to be so close. And what about you, David, where are you today and what's your kind of general setup, and how are you feeling about at all?

DT: Like Marc, I'm working at home today. I think once the current wave of COVID infections in the UK dies down, then I will move to a partially home, partially office experience. So, the common hybrid model.

I've worked at home for pretty much two years now, bar a few days that I went into the office towards the end of last year and I'm happy to work in the hybrid model. I think it'll be interesting, there'll be some adjustments to be made, for businesses and for people as you start to move into that model to make it work really effectively, and I think the interesting thing, from my perspective is, I have a team based partially here in the UK, who I was dealing with face to face, and the other half of my teams in the US, and, you know, there are some members that I've never met face to face, and it works absolutely fine. So, I don't think the hybrid model will affect us at all moving forward.

LN: So it's really interesting there about those interpersonal skills that I think we've all learned recently, in terms of how to conduct ourselves and our business, etc, through virtual means, and bringing that back into an office environment as well. But in terms of your personal values, Marc, what has changed in terms of what you want out of life in the last couple of years?

MB: Oh, that's a big question, Lorien. How long do we have?

LN: (laughs) Sorry. Oh, two minutes. Go!

MB: Let's start with a simple part of that which is, until, two years ago, I'd never worked a day from home in my life. I'd travelled a lot and worked from a lot of hotels and things like that, but I'd never actually done a work from home day. So, the first day working from home in my career was the first day of lockdown in 2020. But what I've found from that point onwards is a really nice balance. Now that we have this mix of office, home, and some flexibility around that, a really nice mix of time to do… I'm a really outdoors person. So to fit in, things outdoors, whether it be you know, swimming, or walking or catching up with friends for a coffee in the park, mixed in with a still very intense and very productive work schedule. But just with less of the less of this, sort of, more formal expectation around when a day starts, when it stops and where it needs to be taking place.

So, for me, I think that's something that has been a really valuable thing that's come through over this this past two-year period. And within that, it also allows you to make time for those things in your life outside of work that are very important to you.

LN: I couldn't agree more. And, David, same question for you really, in terms of how your personal values have changed, and also just two minutes please! (laughs)

DT: My values. I don’t think my values have changed at all, per se. I think what the pandemic has meant is that there is a change to the daily rhythm of life and how you approach the sort of free time, very much like Marc has referred to. And I think it's that rhythm of life, that's really seen the change. And I think that has brought the benefits with a, you know, a focus on one's own well-being, and I think that is probably easier when you're working from home. And again, I don't think it's people's personal values will have changed substantially as a result of the last couple of years, rather, how they're going to apply those. And it is that ability to be more flexible, to fit the things in that you want to, just generally. Work-life balance sounds very trite, but it does allow more flexibility around that without impacting on productivity. If anything, there's probably been, for a lot of people, quite a boost in productivity. That's what you hear very often.

LN: Yeah, no, we do indeed. And now bringing it around to an employment perspective and employer's point of view. Do you think that the pandemic has changed and that we've seen a reset in terms of those values within a corporate environment, within a business environment? You know, thinking about health and well-being first, that you mentioned just there, David?

DT: Health and well-being? Absolutely. I mean, health, simply because of the pandemic, has been front and centre for absolutely everybody. It has pushed employers to have to think very differently. Because of lockdown, and really just helping people to try as much as possible to avoid COVID and the impact of that, so it has really, really changed things. It has brought other stresses to bear. Probably both physically and absolutely mentally as well. And I think that's one of the things we've seen. You and I have talked about substantially, because we've worked together over an extended period, really has been the rise of, sort of, mental health issues that have come with the pandemic, but also the way that, certainly early on, employers really stepped forward in terms of their support around mental health as well.

LN: Quite. And also, Marc, just thinking about some of those other values, maybe looking at the experience, social, environmental first, areas like that. From your perspective, and the organisations that you work with, how have you seen those values and those expectations and the work, culture shift in recent times?

MB: One of the biggest challenges, I think, that we've need to address is to is, in many organisations that were office driven, it's the movement from a team culture where you can observe the behaviours and the performance of your team in an open setting. And the shift into an environment where the only view you get into how people are doing, whether they are in a good place or a not so good place at work, is through very, very deliberate interactions on virtual calls, and you miss that sixth sense of whether somebody needs a bit more support or, or is in a position where they, they need a bit of leadership help to work their way through it.

I think that the shift towards finding ways to identify where your team members are at, and the things that you need to do to support them, to develop them, to make sure that they are getting the best out of that work, that work environment. I think that's been a huge change in in the approach and the areas of focus of leaders, both, both within KPMG and within the clients that we work with. Now, some companies obviously were much more virtual in their team structure before the pandemic than others, but I think all have had to sort of amp up their sensitivity, given the given the additional stresses and worries and concerns that people had both around them and their families.

LN: And so looking at that sort of additional sensitivity, as you put it, and then building in border closures and travel and health regulations, how has that impacted the Global Mobility tool for international organisations, as you see it, Marc?

MB: Lorien, I think the thing that the pandemic has done is made employers, made leaders, made good mobility departments realise that not knowing where your employees are, what they're doing, and whether they're safe is no longer acceptable. There are a lot that were caught out in that period where the pandemic really started to, to have an effect, primarily in that early 2020 period, and I don't think anyone is willing to get caught out again. So that really has had a lot of very focused minds across many aspects of companies thinking about what do we need to do in order to make sure that we, we have the right policies in place, we have the right processes and technology in place so that we, we know why people are going across borders, so that sort of business purpose, or the people engagement purpose. But also, when they go there, what are they doing? How do we make sure that we keep them safe and the company safe, both in terms of the sensitivity to borders of the countries and their authorities, as well as the sensitivity to the employee duty of care and wellness aspects.

LN: No, absolutely. And David, is that something you wanted to weigh in on from, sort of, a duty of care perspective and what has been seen within the Aetna environment? And how perceptions are changing around that?

DT: Yes, I mean, it's exactly that. I mean, we've internally talked about duty of care for quite a long time now, pre-pandemic, but it really has brought that to the forefront for companies to really focus on both. I suppose at that macro level that Marc talks about, you know, where are people and what's going on in a particular region or country, and then bringing that right down to, specifically to the individual as well and thinking about them and their particular position. And that, it really brought to mind where Marc was talking about really listening to your employees, and understanding their particular position. We have telehealth doctors who work for us in a number of locations around the world, and one of the particular skill sets you need to operate in that particular space is listening. If you haven't got the patient in front of you, and it is a phone call, or a video call, the ability to really listen and understand the breathing patterns, the way people are talking about things, etc. And really, you know, you're getting much more from that as a doctor. And I think that's, for more and more managers, that's a new skill that they're having to learn, when, you know, as Marc said, you can't observe people within an office environment. So, I think both a macro and down to a one-to-one level, that the real challenge of duty of care has moved from being a phrase that was, you know, everyone considered, but may have felt like it was owned within a specific department, maybe within HR within a company. And now something that all people managers are really having to consider, and much more proactively take ownership of.

MB: David, I think that's a really important point that you've made there that I think is spanning right across the people environment within companies. And it's that movement away from single rigid policy approaches or process approaches, that demand that the employees come into line and fit, and a movement towards something that's really appreciating the individuality of a circumstance, and particularly when, when something needs to be addressed that that is either a risk or a concern.

I was in a two-day workshop with a with a client this week. And one of the one of the great comments is we as an organisation need to flex to fit our top people and get the best out of them and support them the best way we can. We need to move away from calling on our employees to flex to fit our rigid processes. And I think that's happening when it comes to health and well-being and it's an attitude that seems to be spreading across human resources more generally.

LN: And that agility, that change of mindsets and that sort of relearning and unlearning what we had given us as common practice is something that I'd really like to get into later in the conversation. And I think, Marc, just thinking about what you were saying earlier, about the purpose of people going abroad. What types of mobility are you seeing today and what are their associated risks? So, in other words, what can you tell me about how recent events have changed? You know, how, and where and for how long people are relocating for, for example?

MB: At this moment in in history, that's a fascinating question. And it's probably, depending on where you're standing in the world, you could answer it completely differently, Lorien. So, I think, at the moment, what we've seen in this early part of 2022 is, is that business travel is notably resuming and that is bringing with it the need to, for companies to look at those, those key elements. So, it's everything from the health and safety aspects of crossing borders, with all of the new considerations that are around them, but all the way through into income tax, corporate tax, payroll, Social Security, immigration. And another area that's really a hot focus right now is IT security and the cyber threats that companies are much more conscious of. I think there's the business travel part of that and very similarly, the remote work, or the work from anywhere side of it, where the employees are choosing or requesting to go to somewhere that they'd like to go rather than it being at the behest of the company.

In the preceding 18 months or so, the deployments of people, in many cases, have been either those industries where you need physical people on the ground in your key locations to keep essential services running or to keep infrastructure running, or things like that. So the sort of traditional moves, assignments, short term deployments, but for those, those sort of key, we need humans and we need them here in order for things to continue. On the other hand, one interesting thread that came through those periods of widespread lockdowns is that movements of people internationally were often happening, where both the business and the employee and their family had decided that they wanted to move for mutual benefit, but on a more permanent basis. And so there were quite a number of those moves going ahead, given it was something that was both in the interest of the company and a personal ambition for that individual employee in their family. And so, as windows opened for movement to occur from an immigration and a health and safety perspective, people were moving, but often those sort of one way, one way moves to set up a new life and a new job in a new location.

LN: So just listening to what you were saying there, Marc, about the types of assignments and that there are fundamental shifts going on in what people are expecting and moving more long term. And thinking that there's a fundamental shift in how people are viewing their work, their contract with their employer, that length of tenure, length of assignment, and the give-get contracts that are in situ, within organisations, how are those shifting, those kind of give-get models in terms of people's values, what they expect and, you know, what they expect from their employer and vice versa. We talk about agility, or you spoke about agility and flexibility in those outdated ways of thinking. So I was just wondering if you give us a little bit more detail there, please?

MB: So I think over the last 10 years, maybe a bit longer, this sort of classic vision of what an expat, or what an international assignment looks like, that’s probably is buried in all of our heads from the stories from some time ago of the sort of fat cat, luxurious, expenses, paid type assignment of, I don't know, sometime way before all of us were potentially thinking about it. But I think that image of that classic three to five year assignment, housing, schooling, everyone including the pets pile in and go somewhere for that period of time, and then expect to go back to the home location at the end of it I think the trend towards that being the primary vehicle for mobility ended more than a decade ago and it's been in steady decline in terms of the proportion of global mobility within an organisation that it represents. Partly that's because we got quite creative and global mobility and started thinking, that isn't the only way to get talent to the place that we need. It isn't the only way that we have to mix our diverse talent around the world together to get to get good outcomes, to get collaboration and innovation. So, what happened some time ago, was the number of those one way local or permanent moves being deployed went up, the number of commuter arrangements that allowed family, spouses, pets to remain where they were and doing the things that they enjoyed and the, sort of, pillars of their home lifestyle. The use of commuter assignments went up and the use of business travel instead of much heavier, much more rigid, less flexible, more expensive moves, also really skyrocketed. And now we're finding with the embrace of virtual working, even more creative, hybrid types of solutions to both get people working together, collaboratively and very closely in our key markets around the world, as well as allowing for some personal flexibility, allowing for a different, broad, diverse range of personal circumstances, to still be able to get some international experience and participate in the global organisation.

LN: And David, just again, thinking about those contracts and that flexibility, and the ways in which organisations are having to be more creative and flexible with their thinking, particularly around keeping people healthy, safe, and well as they move. In your experience, how are those compensation and benefits, those give-get contracts? How are they changing?

DT: I think for me, the real tension there is around the implementation of these new working models. Are people are allowed to work in the way they want to? And I think Marc highlighted this, this shift from, you know, the sort of parent-child relationship of an employer to an employee, and the balance of power has shifted now. So can people work in the way they want to? Will they be supported to work effectively in that new model, and then are employers taking time to look at how this new way of working is going to start to impact on well-being? And I believe that means a change in the well-being needs, both of employees and the way that's supported from an employer's perspective, and I think that's going to be a lot of the value exchange. And you see that at lots of different levels.

I was just looking at an article yesterday, just, and this is domestically in the US, but to keep hold of employees, even, you know, those big employers, like, you know, Walmart, are having to think more flexibly about their healthcare benefits for their particular employees, if you want, to kind of hang on to them given the challenges of the great resignation. So I think at every level, well-being is going to become more and more part of that value exchange, as certainly for the time being, you know, the balance of power between employers and employees, becomes more equal.

LN: And from that perspective, Marc, what does that mean for managing globally mobile talent? You and I spoke briefly in the past about how you balance the need for making fair decisions and being efficient, with the need to review situations on a case by case basis, and look at kind of personalization of cover and benefits.

MB: It's a big challenge, Lorien and I think it's causing mobility departments to, to really think very hard about the way that they approach mobility, the way they approach interactions with employees, and the skills, systems and processes, they have to support it. That traditional mobility model that we talked about, that sort of fat cat, traditional assignment type thing, typically came with uniformity of both policy features, and the processes that went around it. So you could have a team that was set up to do things, the same thing over and over and over again. And, and that also allowed you that when you had something that came into the system that didn't fit, you could potentially say it doesn't fit, so it doesn't get into the system moreso than then we're currently finding, which is an environment where business leaders and talent are expecting this much greater level of flexibility and personalization and appreciation for their individual circumstances and needs. So, with that level of flexibility comes great additional complexity. And if that's done using these old approaches, and these old team structures and processes, it becomes unachievable very quickly.

If there's too much to work out on the fly, the time expectations of the business and employees are too short and the system overloads quite quickly. So, it really takes some quite careful thought about what the company's policies and objectives are with mobility. It needs some calls to be made in terms of what parameters are acceptable to the company, and then it needs some really robust systems and processes to take the volume of effort out of the process, managing the process, so that those people in the mobility that are really, really great at managing complex multistakeholder issues are really focusing their time and attention, not on rolling the machine over and over, but on those most acute issues that need their attention to find a good solution.

I think it's going beyond the health and well-being piece and even beyond the compliance piece of this, the thing that is extending off, what we heard David just talking about, is that employees are expecting that whole reward package to start to align with both the company's purpose, in particular their ESG objectives, and their own personal purpose and the way that they see that connecting with the organisation they've chosen to, to partner with. And that's a challenge, because that's really going well beyond things like carbon footprint and offsets into going through my entire award package here. How is it that those features, those elements, the things that are offered to me as part of this deal. How do they fit into my purpose and how they fit into the company stated purpose?

LN: As you said, it could be quite overwhelming if you don't have that agile thinking and if you aren't prepared to then sit down and redesign that governance framework for it. And just thinking about that personalization of cover and benefits, David, as well. So for individuals and being able to really be responsive and to listen and to give them what they need, where are you seeing that degree of personalization coming in from a from a corporate perspective, from a customer perspective at Aetna?

DT: Well, I think the first thing to say is, we've done for a few years, now we've done research, and really looked at the gap between employers and employees and their particular thinking. So we've got a series of work called ‘Tackling polarised perceptions’, and what that's really showing is, One: how benefits are moving. So you know, as Marc talked about, this very dynamic relationship, and ever more personalised relationship between the employer and employee. So there’s certainly, you know, well-being as part of that, it's not the be all and end all, there is absolutely a balance of things, as you know, as Marc has said, but well-being is certainly becoming more front of mind. It's really not a surprise, that that's the case, you know, given the kind of world outside our windows. People are looking to balance a number of different benefits, but there's no universal. So, you know, it is, it's so personal. The real watch word is giving the individuals control, giving them the support so that they can shape things that work for them. Clearly, you know, the quid pro quo is that also needs to work for a business at the same time. So it's, you know, how can you facilitate more choice in well-being and more widely with their benefits, and make that work for both parties, but absolutely, everything is about the personalisation and bringing it from, you know, the cookie cutter approach that happened historically, down to, you know, much more of a one to one basis, going forward.

LN: And with that degree of change, I mean, it's important to look for some efficiencies, undoubtedly. But then thinking about it from a broader perspective, Marc, when it comes to things like tax and immigration implications, and the way that they are putting pressure on companies when they're when thinking about global mobility, who is how is that changing in the whole sort of talent assignment picture, at the moment?

MB: I probably see two sides to this, Lorien, where, on the one hand, you need to have access to high quality and fast information from experts to allow you to make good decisions. And when the business is moving fast, employees are looking to move fast so you need to find a way to get that through technology-enabled channels so that most of the things you need to do, even the complex ones, you can move on quite quickly and save deep dives for those things that really truly are worthy of deep dive time and attention. But even before that, the other half of this that I think is incredibly important is that internal governability teams are looking at what are the skills and capabilities that we need to have within our team in order to be able to keep that pace with the business, to be able to facilitate business making good decisions on the fly. And so it's not just about that access to great advice from external vendors, enabled through technology. It plays a big part of it, but I think there's also a role for those, those experts that you engage as vendors, to be helping you in your internal mobility team, develop the skills that you currently have to a higher level and fill in some of those skill gaps that you need within your team. And there may be some element of technology enablement there to be able to get up-to-date real time answers at your fingertips to answer the queries of the business, but part of it is also to look at your team, the people within it, their skills, and think about what you'll need more and what you'll need to fill gaps.

LN: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I was going to lead into a question about what skill sets are going to be really important moving forward and the attitudes as well, and you’ve really highlighted technology as a key driver for skills moving forward. And then picking up on the conversation we had earlier about, you know, how you really need to continue to learn and also unlearn maybe bad habits and relearn, based on the situation around us today, to keep you moving forward, both, you know, as an individual employee, as a team, as an organisation.

So David, you know, just thinking about it from that perspective, what kind of key attitudes do you think need to be reflected in organisations from the top down? How do we, how are we shooting everything through this this lens of, you know, purpose and culture and well-being? How is that being seen across Aetna and some of Atlanta's clients?

DT: To my mind, the foremost skill is collaboration. You know, but I don't think that's something that's necessarily changed. But, you know, the ability to, literally, if you're working in country, face-to-face, cross border, the ability to collaborate effectively and to work flexibly. That really is probably the most important one in terms of driving success, dealing with the changes that we're seeing. That's what I'm seeing again, and again, and again. And it's interesting, when you look at corporate values of organisations, and they're often very similar. You know, we will often talk about, you know, if you took a flat colour, and you put on this colour, instead with a different logo, you see very, very similar things. So, I don't think it's a case of skills and attitudes being massively different within different organisations, it is just the finesse and skill with which you apply those particular things. And as I said, I really do think that it is collaboration that is the key to really making these things work, whether it's between a Global Mobility team and an employee's or just more broadly and driving for business success.

MB: Yeah, David, I think you, you couldn't be more right on that. And I think that the skill or the, almost the superpower of being able to effectively lead or stimulate collaboration is incredibly valuable, and becoming more and more so. I think we need to be careful not to be trapped in that mindset that elevates deep technical skill and undervalues that skill and the power of someone who is a great collaborator, or even better a great collaboration leader, or stimulator. And I think as complexity increases, it's drawing in more and more deep specialists, and more and more stakeholders from across businesses that all have a necessary role in order to find an effective path for mobility for other HR issues. And so that need for someone to step into the middle and conduct that that enormous orchestra in a really effective way is, is gold dust. So, we need to make sure we're continuing to develop people like that and really, really elevating them so that they know that they're skills are appreciated.

LN: Yeah, I mean, you mentioned in a nutshell, I think, you know, sort of communications and interpersonal skills as well as that really deep-seated expertise, and then that ability to break down silos and bring people together, that collaboration. So, from a corporate perspective, you know, that makes absolute sense. And I'm thinking about from an individual's perspective, those who are currently in a space where they are globally mobile, or that they have an ambition to become so. What is really going to help them thrive in this way in the future, do you think Marc? So thinking about psychological, sort of, physical health? Also, you know, career personal achievements and things like that, your sense of purpose. Where do you see people really kind of amping up their levels of interest and engagement in terms of being successful when it comes to international assignments?

MB: So I think there are some environmental factors that will contribute to increased success in mobile roles. Partly, because I think over the last two years, everyone focused on mobility has heighten their sense of importance around all of those key factors in terms of, we've talked about them throughout this conversation, the way to engage people at a distance, the importance of making sure that someone's well-being health and safety is considered as a key issue throughout an assignment. Compliance things that could distract or erode the value of an assignment are taken care of with much more focus than maybe they previously were. And there's flexibility around personal circumstances. So, I think the environmental elements are, are in play to, sort of lay the foundation for more successful governability for employees. And I think with that, and with this practice we've had a virtual working, the ability to engage with home country, if you if you like, sponsoring leadership or performance managers, colleagues and former teammates, I think is much, it's much more natural now than it was a couple of years ago where we're one of the one of the failures of many deployments was this sort of cutting of the umbilical cord back to where you came from, when somebody went to a new place. So rather than building they were sort of losing something, and gaining some local connections. So I think a number of those things are all sort of setting people up for more success. And I think every organisation's increased value of unlocking the power of the diversity of their talent, being inclusive about the views and different opinions, different approaches, different ideas from right across their organisation, all of those things, fuel success within mobility.

LN: And David, just coming to you then from the perspective of, again, setting people up for success, or setting themselves up for success and their attitudes and expectations of those globally mobile opportunities. What do you think will really help people to thrive in those circumstances in the future?

DT: I think, at an individual level, taking what they've learnt over the last couple of years can be quite a game changer. Because, you know, that we at Aetna have looked at what works and doesn't work for an individual. So that the environmental factors, you know, that Marc talked about there, they can be the things that really make an assignment fail. And, you know, a strong part of that can be that sense of being very disconnected. The way that you said that there, Marc, in terms of what you gain and what you lose with an assignment, and it always felt, historically, something that was so binary. You were just waving goodbye to something and you just had to accept that. But I think now, people understand that, being physically present doesn't necessarily, or is not the only route equaling contact and relationships, etc. So, I think that working virtually, and therefore connecting virtually, socially as well, means you can you move away from that very binary, what you lose what you gain. You have a much more blended view of things. Take that on board and have that broad consideration around those environmental factors. Have an employer that's really looking at those particular issues and I think you have a far greater chance of success.

And I think from an employer's perspective, if you can look at the, you know, we talk often around the social determinants of health, you know, so the different factors that impact on an individual's health and well-being, very much in the long term. And I think from an employer perspective, there's this kind of corporate determinants of success. So what you can put in place for a particular individual around, you know, salary, benefits, working model, etc. that allow you to codify at a broad level, a model that supports and sets up someone for success, but has the latitude within that to allow the individual to carve their particular niche, and hopefully bring their perspective so that they can really thrive and work effectively for themselves and enjoy the experience, but at the same time, really drive and support business success.

LN: Fantastic. I mean, in terms of closing remarks, and you know, really sort of rounding off that holistic whole person health, that sense of purpose, what one thing are you perhaps going to do today, Marc, that sort of furthers your, what is important to you - your health, well-being sense of purpose, whether it's lifelong learning. What is what is on your agenda?

MB: I was going to add to something from David. He had me reflecting about my own moves and different experiences around the world. So on that I thought, one of the things that I think is most important to mobility success is to avoid the temptation of surrounding yourself with comfortable sameness and to allow yourself to get excited at the extreme difference, and on all of those things that make you a little uncomfortable, but if you let yourself go with them can be the most exciting, most memorable, most valuable bits of experiencing another person's home and another person's culture and environment.

And for me today, on my agenda today. After work today, I'm going to catch up with some dear old friends who had a huge influence on my career and retired last year, and are enjoying their retirement. And we'll catch up this evening and I'm sure reflect on some lovely memories of the time that we worked together all around the world and and also enjoy some of the stories of the new life that they're creating post work.

LN: Fantastic. That sounds incredible. And David, just thinking about those new experiences and kind of getting yourself out of your comfort zone and out of a rut and things like that, what do you do and what's maybe on your agenda for today, from that perspective?

DT: Marc saying about that and looking at new experiences, the reality is, is I think the underlying drivers for people don't change. And I think there's a book by Susan Jeffers, I think it's called “Feel The Fear And Do It Anyway” and doesn't that kind of sum up how you kind of grab the most out of any experience? You know, be it What are you doing Friday night, or an expat assignment.

For me? Today will certainly be, you know, I obsessively listen to podcasts and just kind of pour more and more information into my head. So always everyday learning something about history, science, politics, sport, you know, whatever. So always building up my knowledge, getting ready for the next quiz night. And just getting out doing something physically. So I live in a sort of fairly quiet rural area. So going tramping the lanes tonight with my torch on and getting a few miles under my belt listening to a podcast will do it for me, and that sets me up for the weekend.

LN: Fantastic, sounds like a very good start to the weekend for you both. So all that remains to be said is thank you so much for your time and expertise and reflections today. And for everyone listening, I really hope that you've got as much out of it as I have. So thank you to you both.

[Thanks]

So, I really hope you've enjoyed today's discussion. Don't forget to subscribe to Fit for Duty and next time, next episode, we will be looking at healthcare trends around the world that are going to impact us across 2022 and beyond, and also the role of technology and how that will continue to shape and evolve and affect the healthcare landscape.

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